Bashir Maan & Alastair McIntosh
Question: Professor Watt, how did
you become interested in Islam and Christianity?
Response: Well, I had studied
Classics at Edinburgh University and “Greats” – philosophy and ancient history –
at Oxford. From 1934 to 1938 I taught moral philosophy at Edinburgh University.
In 1937 when my mother died, I asked an Indian (later Pakistani) Muslim to come
as a paying guest to help me pay for a housekeeper. Khwaja Abdul Mannan was a
student of veterinary medicine and at that time, aged about 20, a member of the
Ahmadiyya Community – something he would have had to give up later when he
became a Colonel in the Pakistani army. Mannan, as he called himself, was an
argumentative Muslim, and our many discussions over breakfast and evening meals
raised my interest in the world of Islam. I believe that he is still alive in
When I heard that the Anglican
Bishop in Jerusalem wanted someone to work on Muslim-Christian relations I
applied for the post. After studying theology and being ordained priest, I began
to learn Arabic in London. Between 1941 and 1943, I completed my PhD at
Edinburgh on freewill and predestination in early Islam. That was with Richard
Bell, famous for translation of the Qur’an. Between 1944 and 1946, I worked in
Palestine under the Bishop of Jerusalem. I had hoped to have discussions with
Muslims, but Jerusalem proved not to be a good place to get in contact with
intellectual Muslims. In 1946, things became difficult. I lost a friend when
they blew up the King David Hotel. After leave, I decided not to return to
Jerusalem. In 1947, I became head of the department of Arabic & Islamic Studies
at Edinburgh University and continued there until my retirement in 1979 at the
age of 70. In 1964, I received the title of Professor. I remain a priest in the
Scottish Episcopalian Church and am presently writing another book about a
Christian faith for today.
Question: Your life’s work has
been devoted to dialogue between Islam and Christianity. Why is this important?
Response: In the outburst of
missionary activity round about the year 1800 the ideal was to go into the
non-Christian parts of the world, and convert everyone to Christianity; and this
is still the ideal of some Christians. From Islam, however, there were very few
converts. I have now come to doubt the appropriateness of conversion in many
cases. The nineteenth-century missionaries did not appreciate the positive
achievements of the great religions in giving their communities a tolerable and
meaningful form of life. In the course of time, I have made many Muslim friends,
some of them in influential positions. These persons are deeply rooted in their
religion and are doing excellent work not only for their fellow-Muslims but also
for wider circles. I would indeed admit that sometimes conversion may be
necessary for an individual’s spiritual health and growth; but this is
exceptional. For such reasons, I hold that the Christian aim for the foreseeable
future should be to bring the religions together in a friendly dialogue; and
where possible, in cooperation, for there is a sense in which all are threatened
by the rising tide of secularism and materialism.
Question: Many Westerners would
question the value of dialogue with Islam because, for example, they see the shari‘ah as being cruel. Do you think this is true?
Response: Well, similar
punishments are found in the Old Testament - including, for example, the cutting
off of women’s hands in Deuteronomy 25. In Islamic teaching, such penalties may
have been suitable for the age in which Muhammad lived. However, as societies
have since progressed and become more peaceful and ordered, they are not
suitable any longer.
If we demonise one another we
cannot even debate such things. Dialogue is therefore imperative. It helps us to
discern not just the meaning of the Holy Scriptures, but also the relevance that
God wants them to have in our times.
Question: What about the attitude
of Muhammad towards women?
Response: It is true that Islam
is still, in many ways, a man’s religion. But I think I’ve found evidence in
some of the early sources that seems to show that Muhammad made things better
for women. It appears that in some parts of Arabia, notably in Makkah, a
matrilineal system was in the process of being replaced by a patrilineal one at
the time of Muhammad. Growing prosperity caused by a shifting of trade routes
was accompanied by a growth in individualism. Men were amassing considerable
personal wealth, and wanted to be sure that this would be inherited by their own
actual sons, and not simply by an extended family of their sisters’ sons. This
led to deterioration in the rights of women. At the time Islam began, the
conditions of women were terrible - they had no right to own property, were
supposed to be the property of the man, and if the man died everything went to
his sons. Muhammad improved things quite a lot. By instituting rights of
property ownership, inheritance, education, and divorce, he gave women certain
basic safeguards. Set in such historical context, the Prophet can be seen as a
figure who testified on behalf of women’s rights.
A lot also depends on what sort
of Muslim society you look at. Many Westerners today think that Islam holds
women in the heaviest oppression. That may be so in some cases, but only because
they look at certain parts of the Islamic world. Pakistan, Bangladesh, and
Turkey have all had women heads of state. I therefore don’t think the perception
of Westerners is entirely correct.
Question: What about war: Jihad
versus Crusade? Terrorism, for example, can be considered both unislamic and
unchristian, yet we see it justified by extremists whether in Egypt or Northern
Ireland. Do you think violence can be part of faith?
Response: Well, I think
fundamentalists of any religion go beyond what their religion is about. But let
me take an example from our Old Testament. I’m becoming very worried about the
Old Testament because so much of it is unchristian. I read a passage every day
and find it more and more so. There is a serious matter which is not clear from
some translations. The New Jerusalem Bible that I read uses the phrase “curse of
destruction” and this was applied to towns when the Hebrews were coming into
Palestine. They killed everyone in a town - men, women, children and sometimes
also animals. This happened in Jericho as we see in Joshua 6, and in about a
dozen other places; and there are also later instances. This is definitely
I think, on the whole,
Christianity is against war, though in the past Christians have supported wars.
I don’t think Islam is basically anti-Christian, but some extremists might take
such a view.
There was a formal gathering of
Scottish Christians and Muslims at the national service of reconciliation in
Edinburgh following the Gulf War a few years ago. Scottish church leaders had
refused the government’s wish to make it a service of “thanksgiving.” They
called it, instead, one of “reconciliation.” The time of day coincided with the
Muslim’s evening call to prayer. At first the Muslims thought this would prevent
them from attending. But then, to avoid any problem, they were allowed to say
their prayers in St Giles Cathedral in front of the Christian altar while the
Christian congregation kept silent. The following week Christians prayed in the
community centre of the Glasgow Mosque. This would mirror the tradition that
Muhammad allowed Christian delegations visiting him to pray in the Mosque. Such
a happening in modern Scotland, even after a war, suggests that religion can
heal the wounds of war.
I, therefore, certainly don’t
think the West is locked into jihad with Islam, though I suppose if the
fundamentalists go too far they’ll have to be opposed. Iran’s comments about the
“Great Satan” were aimed mostly at the United States: they were not made because
the West was Christian. I think the West should try to overcome these strains
between different religious groups. I do, however, think that the US is
following a very dangerous policy in relation to the Middle East. The root of
this trouble is that the US gives too much support to Israel. They allow them to
have nuclear weapons and to do all sorts of things, some of which are contrary
even to Jewish law. Jewish families occupy Arab houses without payment. That is
robbery. I think that the US should be much firmer with Israel, and put a lot of
pressure on them, though this is difficult because of the strong Jewish lobby.
Unless something is done, there’ll be dangerous conflict in the Middle East.
Such danger would be less likely to arise if all three Abrahamic faiths – Jews,
Christians and Muslims – paid greater respect to what God teaches us about
Question: Do you think that the
newly re-established Scottish Parliament should take any position on the Middle
Response: The Scots Parliament
should keep to a middle course and certainly not join the anti-Islamic side. I’m
sure it would like to see some balance of Jews and Muslims in the Middle East,
and of course, fair treatment for the Palestinian Arabs, some of whom are
Christian. The Scottish Parliament might try and help them to come to terms with
Within Scotland, the parliament
should work for some harmony between religions as there are Muslims and Jews, as
well as Christians, in Scotland. With luck, there’ll be one or two Muslim MSPs.
The big question is whether the Nationalists will win and go on to demand
independence which I think might be a good thing, though I’m neither strongly
for or against independence.
Question: Islam maintains that
the word of God is final and we can’t change it. Christianity, with its
understanding of the dynamic presence of the Holy Spirit, is in constant flux.
Where do you stand on this difference?
Response: I would be inclined to
say that the Qur’an is the word of God for a particular time and place, and will
not therefore necessarily suit other times and places. The prohibition on usury
may have been good for a certain time and place but that doesn’t mean it will
always be good.
You see, I think that Muslims
need help in reaching a fresh understanding of the Qur’an as God’s word, but
comparison with the Bible does not help much. The Qur’an came to Muhammad in a
period of less than 25 years, whereas from Moses to Paul is about 1300 years.
Christians could, perhaps, show from the Bible that there is a development in
God’s relation to the human race. For example, Moses was told to order the death
penalty by stoning he who broke the Sabbath by gathering firewood on it. Joshua
was told to exterminate the whole population of various towns, men, women and
children. Could the loving God taught by Jesus have given such barbaric and
bloodthirsty orders? To say “No,” as one would like to do, throws doubt on the
inspiration of the Bible. We seem to have to say that the precise commands which
God gives to believers depend on the form of society in which they are living.
Traditionally Muslims have argued from God’s eternity that the commands he gives
are unalterable, and they have not admitted that social forms can change.
I, therefore, do not believe that
either the Bible or the Qur’an is infallibly true in the sense that all their
commands are valid for all time. The commands given in both books were true and
valid for the societies to which the revelations were primarily addressed; but
when the form of society changes in important respects some commands cease to be
appropriate, though many others continue to be valid. I do, however, believe
that Muhammad, like the earlier prophets, had genuine religious experiences. I
believe that he really did receive something directly from God. As such, I
believe that the Qur’an came from God, I mean it is Divinely inspired. Muhammad
could not have caused the great upsurge in religion that he did without God’s
The diagnosis of the Makkan
situation by the Qur’an is that the troubles of the time were primarily
religious, despite their economic, social and moral undercurrents, and as such
capable of being remedied only by means that are primarily religious. In view of
Muhammad’s effectiveness in addressing this, he would be a bold man who would
question the wisdom of the Qur’an.
Question: What do you think of
the Qur’anic statement that the Old Testament has been changed, thus accounting
for some of the differences between the Abrahamic faiths?
Response: Well, I think that the
later writers sometimes changed earlier things to make them more suitable for
their contemporaries. I think there was a lot of rewriting of the Old Testament,
though the form in which we have it hasn’t been changed since the Christian era.
I see the Old Testament as the record of a developing religion. As a religion
develops some of the earlier stages may have to be abandoned completely. An
example might be Islamic teachings on usury. I don’t see how it is possible
completely to get rid of usury. We’ll have to see how Islamic attempts to get
rid of usury work. Undoubtedly capitalism has got to be restricted in various
ways. The world is certainly in a mess at the moment, but how we can get out of
it, I don’t know. All I can say is that there are things that Christianity can
learn from Islam, especially on its spiritual side, and Islam can perhaps learn
from Christian understanding of God in relation to the universe and human life.
I think Muslims would find that this might give a slightly greater emphasis to
something in their own faith.
I think another thing is that we
have all got to come to terms with the scientific outlook of today. That is very
critical of the Old Testament. Old Testament says a lot about God’s anger which
I think is based on some of the false ideas that the Old Testament people had.
They thought, you see, that God could interfere with the laws of nature. They
thought that God made the sun stand still for a whole day so that Joshua could
get a great victory. Well, that’s impossible. They thought that God could
intervene with his own natural laws and punish people. Well, I think there is a
sense in which wrongdoing is punished, but even in the Bible it is recognised
that the wicked sometimes flourish. There are different strands of thinking in
Question: Islam requires belief
in God as revealed in “the books” - not just the one book. This arguably
incorporates Christian and Jewish scriptures. What, then, do you think
Judeo-Christian understandings might have to teach Islam?
Response: I think Muslims will
have to take the work of Christ more seriously, even if they simply regard him
as a prophet. The view I take, in accordance with the creeds, is that he was
truly human. He wasn’t a superman. That leaves you with the question of how he
was also divine, but I think we have to look much more at his humanity. I also
don’t think he was able to work miracles except for those that other saints
could also do - such as curing the sick. I don’t think some of the other
miracles really happened. For instance, one of the outstanding things was the
supposed changing of water into wine at a marriage feast. This is given in the
fourth Gospel, and is said to be the first of the signs of Jesus’ achievement.
Clearly, this was meant to be understood symbolically, because making a lot of
wine has nothing to do with the Gospel. It was meant to symbolise changing
something ordinary into something precious, which is what Jesus had achieved. It
was not meant to be taken literally – there was a tremendous amount of wine
involved – the equivalent of about 900 bottles, and I don’t think Jesus was an
In the Qur’an, there is very
little knowledge of Judaism and almost none of Christianity except about such
points as the virgin birth. There are references to Moses and Abraham and so
forth, but nothing about, for example, the settlement of Israel in Palestine,
and the achievements of the later prophets with their important emphasis on
justice. I cannot believe that God would not bless the development of greater
awareness amongst Muslims of these things.
Question: And what can Islam
Response: Speaking personally, it
has taught me to think more deeply about the oneness of God. I am not happy with
the traditional Trinitarian Christian formulation of God comprising three
“persons” – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The word “person” has changed since it
was first used in English four centuries ago. It was a translation of the Latin
persona – a face or mask, such as that used by actors. Now the English word
means an individual, which is different. Christianity is not trying to say that
God comprises three individuals. Islam, with its many different names for the
qualities of God, can help the Christian see a more true meaning of Trinitarian
doctrine. The Trinity is different faces or roles of the same one God. For me,
that insight has been a direct result of my study of Islam.
Question: There is a prayer that
you have long used that brings together the Judeo-Christian with the Islamic
before the God of us all. Might we close our interview with that?
Response: O Father, Son and Holy
Spirit, one God, grant that the whole house of Islam, and we Christians with
them, may come to know you more clearly, serve you more nearly, and love you
more dearly. Amen.
Professor Watt, thank you very